H2 Fan Club

bugfreezer · Post by **bugfreezer** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:38 am

miftah wrote:So Bugs, your kids are safe while the mother of four, with her kids buckled in place, are put in harm's way when the front end of your SUV crawls up and over into the front wind shield of her economy car? Sure your kids are safe, but at what cost? Is it about looking out for #1? Is that what this Hummer thing is about?

Hah, thank you Miftah for setting me straight - I was mostly worried about the young, single drunk drivers with no insurance. Perspective is a good thing.

miftah wrote:Apparently Sherman tanks are very safe, if inefficient on gas. Are those next?

No, too slow and narrow visibility.

Seriously, I'd only want a hummer if I lived in the bush country (no, not Texas), and even then, it violates my personal rule about drawing too much attention, so not likely.

ironpants · Post by **ironpants** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:40 am

Water cooled VW's are teh bomb in the snow! I never had any problems with mine in spokane except for that time I left the track slicks on a bit too long in the fall

ironpants · Post by **ironpants** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:48 am

Course, if you realy wanna have snow fun in a vw, you need a Golf Country (they actually sold them like that, I always thought someone washed a 4 runner in hot water and it shrunk

)

Post by **bio** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:17 am

Rocketdork wrote:A SUV has no practical application in the snow...

I'm just gonna give you a big ol'

for that.

Rocketdork wrote:The weight makes them harder to stop, yeah, the 4 wheel drive gets you moving at the stoplights better, but it doesn't help you much anywhere else, and it seems to give most drivers too much confidence. 4 wheel drive is no excuse for unsafe driving.

The first time it snows, you primarally see 4x4's in the ditch. Poor driving habbits by people don't invalidate a vehicles worth.

Rocketdork wrote:I had a front wheel drive Volkswagon Rabbit, I used it to pull a number of 4 wheel drive vehicles out of the ditch, up hills etc. I could go virtually anywhere a 4 wheel drive vehicle could go.

Sure... until the snow gets deeper than the bottom of the car. I've also had a few VW's and they're pretty tough... but I've also high-centered the car in on snow here in Spokane before. With the higher body and bigger tires of an SUV, that doesn't happen.

Rocketdork wrote:The 4 wheel drive argument doesn't wash.

And it most certainly won't rinse, lather, or repeat either.

Rocketdork wrote:The bottom line is that you just wanted the jeep, don't try to justify it now.

Dude... I had a Durango. I got something smaller and lighter, which takes up less road space and gets better mileage. It's sensable, yet still has the ability to do what the Durango did. I don't need to justify squat.

Post by **eddiecanuck** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:45 am

So then is the major opinion here that all SUVs=bad? Everything else is okay? So my Dodge 1500 Quad cab 5.9 V8 that gets 18/15mpg is okay cause it has an open bed? Boy I'm glad I didn't trade it in on a Blazer or Explorer. whew, dodged that bullet.

Again, it all comes back to what you like. I think some of the SUVs are ugly, but some of them I like. And for the record Bio, I think the new Jeep is nice.

bugfreezer · Post by **bugfreezer** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:37 am

eddiecanuck wrote:So then is the major opinion here that all SUVs=bad? Everything else is okay? So my Dodge 1500 Quad cab 5.9 V8 that gets 18/15mpg is okay cause it has an open bed? Boy I'm glad I didn't trade it in on a Blazer or Explorer. whew, dodged that bullet.

Again, it all comes back to what you like. I think some of the SUVs are ugly, but some of them I like. And for the record Bio, I think the new Jeep is nice.

I think it is more symbolic, the SUV=bad argument. There are far fewer complaints about buses, Semi's and trash haulers - they can do a far better job of killing an economy car than the H2 - and there are a lot more of them. We drive an Isuzu Rodeo, which has been a lifesaver for my wife, who does home health rehabilitation throughout Whitman County, which has a lot more bush country than say, King County (both in Washington State, for you Auslanders out there). While there are plenty of ostentatious vehicles out there like the H2 (on top of the form factor, the markup on it (NTM most SUV's) suggests that most purchasers don't really know where their money went), I think the tossing the baby out with the bathwater biz is over the top, and happens far too often.

The best of all worlds for us family types would be a hybrid SUV/minivan - minivan internal layout/carrying capacity with a more elevated and robust undercarriage and 4WD capability - I know some MV's do have AWD, but sit too low for Eastern WA.

Post by **miftah** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:03 am

Bugs, the vehicles you mention serve the interests of many families, where an SUV serves the interests of one family.

bugfreezer · Post by **bugfreezer** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:11 pm

Indeed, but they would make the same amount of difference to the family of four in the economy car so smacked.

Post by **bio** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:13 pm

Hmm... how about.... drive what you like, but have a brain, know how to operate the vehicle you're in, know it's limitations, follow the rules of the road, and for God's sake... use your friggin' turn signals!

Well... it's just a thought.

bugfreezer · Post by **bugfreezer** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:23 pm

Wow...that makes a whole lotta sense.

Now where is that Frackin' user's manual???

Post by **miftah** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:27 pm

Bugs this isn't about whether or not there should be large vehicles. Its about using a sense of pragmatism in the way of what kind and how many we unleash on the roadways. Buses, garbage trucks, et al., are necessities, not luxuries. I don't discount there are people who need SUVs. True dat. However, not everyone who is driving one needs one. And since their f-ed up sense of entitlement seems to be less than concerned as to how their decisions effect others, I guess you see people flipping the bird at Hummers to remind them.

Just because they (SUV owners) can is not a reason why they should. Anybody remember the concept of social responsibility?

Update: Global Warming? Actually, hell froze over.

ironpants · Post by **ironpants** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:25 pm

While I'll agree oil dependance and the economies of consumption that come with it are troubling, I'm not seeing any options within the context of the law.

Do you have something in mind?

Pigman · Post by **Pigman** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:27 pm

Land of the brave, home of the free?

Just because a SUV COULD take out a smaller car, don't mean we should ban SUVs... how about personal responsibility?

The old argument about should we ban a specific tool, vehicle, weapon OR legislate the proper and legal use of said instruments?

At least this thread has all of us wearing our thinking hats again!

Personally, I don't think SUVs are any bigger threat to smaller cars than all the other vehicles Bugs mentioned. Isn't a 18 wheeler as much a threat to a SUV?

Using logic like this, I should demand ALL little cars to go away as they could really hurt me when I ride my MOTORCYCLE which gets better gas mileage and allows me to be more socially responsible.

But then again, I guess people have a "right" to drive little cars....

Post by **miftah** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:37 pm

Piggy, I'm not advocating legislation and I think it would be a bad idea if it were introduced. I would be opposed to it. I think if people seriously believe they have a need for these vehicles, then they should have access to them. I think some people buy them because they're compensating for something else. Something profoundly smaller.

But, actually, yeah. I'd like to see fewer semi's on the road too. I wouldn't legislate it, but I'd like to see it. In fact, I'd like to see a separate highway system for commercial shipping vehicles, to reduce the risk of them. I would also like to see legislation limiting the number of trailers on one cab. If you need three trailers, you need to go ahead and hire a train. I'm talking to you DHL.

Rocketdork · Post by **Rocketdork** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:47 pm

OK, the beef I have with SUV's is that I see them as a totally useless item. They are purely a luxury vehicle. They don't do anything as well as a dedicated item.

They don't do any better in the NORMAL snow conditions in most of the US...a Suburu and most front drive cars handle better, without the hit in fuel milage.

The won't carry anything well except people, you want to carry a bunch of 2x4's and some sheets of drywall? Not in an SUV, you'll damage the leather seats.

They won't tow as well as a pickup. Ever tried to hook a 5th wheel to a SUV?

Hell they'll carry 7 people...but a van does it better, and gets better fuel milage.

They are dangerous to all but the people encased in them.

I can justify busses, Semi's, pickup trucks and other huge vehicles that suck the fuel down, but I just can't come up with a saving grace for the SUV.

Ban normal cars for a Motorcycle? Just one question, what about winter?